tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post113943563905857372..comments2024-03-28T08:57:53.180+00:00Comments on Darwinian Conservatism by Larry Arnhart: Abraham Lincoln and Charles DarwinLarry Arnharthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14619785331100785170noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-3574653794550018102010-09-03T14:45:14.202+01:002010-09-03T14:45:14.202+01:00Both of these great personalities have inspired th...Both of these great personalities have inspired the world. Lincon is a symbol of The American Civil War and of the fight against slavery, and Darwin the naturalist that promoted the idea that all species of life decend from common ancestors. <br /><br />Accepting his idea, one simply rejects the existence of God. If we decend from monkeys, Adam did not exist and God is not above human nature. <br /><br />I personally disagree. I believe that God created man, and He is the almighty lawgiver. I believe that Lincon believed in God, because he fought against slavery, believing that people are equal to God. We are all made in God's image!inchirieri apartamente clujhttp://www.edil.ro/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1140095549402959612006-02-16T13:12:00.000+00:002006-02-16T13:12:00.000+00:00Luke,I agree. We can understand the powerful mora...Luke,<BR/><BR/>I agree. We can understand the powerful moral appeal of the Bible by understanding how it appeals to our natural moral sense. So, for example, the statement of the golden rule by Jesus is seen by Darwin as expressing "the foundation of morality."Larry Arnharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619785331100785170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139932945698382252006-02-14T16:02:00.000+00:002006-02-14T16:02:00.000+00:00Would it be possible to site your sources? I don'...Would it be possible to site your sources? I don't say that as a slant I just think your information is fascinating and I would like to research it more to form my own opinions.<BR/>ThanksBil Repenninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13711723896445280342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139857643228385432006-02-13T19:07:00.000+00:002006-02-13T19:07:00.000+00:00Oops, sorry. That's what happens when the feedback...Oops, sorry. That's what happens when the feedback is "you got an error" rather than "post successful".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139857446131466902006-02-13T19:04:00.000+00:002006-02-13T19:04:00.000+00:00Larry,I find your position somewhat circular. Stip...Larry,<BR/><BR/>I find your position somewhat circular. Stipulations are constrained by custom, but customs are established largely through stipulation. Maybe the distinction between these (written as opposed to unwritten?) isn't all that meaningful.<BR/><BR/>If you read (I'm sure you have, of course) such as Locke, Mill, Hobbes, Rousseau, and others, they all start out by saying "Because human nature is THIS, proper organization of society should be THAT." In other words, there's a long tradition of recognizing that to the degree that stipulations require unnatural behavior, they will be violated. Problem is, these various social philosophers disagree, sometimes significantly, about the shape of human nature.<BR/><BR/>So I don't regard non-conservatives as "attempting to set aside nature and custom" in favor of "purely stipulated design." First, let's leave custom out of this. ANY attempt to establish a new organization, however well or ill advised, must set aside custom. Second, I see these people as attempting to FIT human nature, rather than disregard it. The utopians are saying that humans, by their nature, are not monogamous. And they're right. The conservatives are saying that humans ARE monogamous. They are also right. Humans are *partially* monogamous, except when they aren't.<BR/><BR/>Compounding the problem here is that if we regard 'custom' as social organization (and ramifications of it) that just sort of evolved along least-resistance paths to minimize conflict, you don't need to be Margaret Mead to notice the impressively wide range of 'natural' customs within which people can live peacefully and happily. People surely have a biological nature, but part of our nature is to be malleable and adaptable.<BR/><BR/>My thesis, then, is that what conservatives oppose isn't "unnatural" arrangements (after all, ALL points on the political spectrum reject that), but change itself. I see this, for example, behind conservative opposition to same-sex marriage. This is NOT an opposition to anything unnatural; it's nothing more than an attempt for civil authority to legally recognize a living arrangement that in many cases has been perfectly natural, stable, and comfortable. Many applicants had been in committed relationships for decades.<BR/><BR/>So while I think we agree that any practice that violates our biological natures won't work, where conservatives disagree with non-conservatives concerns the width of scope within which we be permitted by stipulation to experiment. "Customary law" need not be narrowly stipulated to fall well within normal (i.e. wide) human variability, but it DOES need to be narrowly stipulated to escape the inherent conservative discomfort with "different."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139857340636120962006-02-13T19:02:00.001+00:002006-02-13T19:02:00.001+00:00Larry,I find your position somewhat circular. Stip...Larry,<BR/><BR/>I find your position somewhat circular. Stipulations are constrained by custom, but customs are established largely through stipulation. Maybe the distinction between these (written as opposed to unwritten?) isn't all that meaningful.<BR/><BR/>If you read (I'm sure you have, of course) such as Locke, Mill, Hobbes, Rousseau, and others, they all start out by saying "Because human nature is THIS, proper organization of society should be THAT." In other words, there's a long tradition of recognizing that to the degree that stipulations require unnatural behavior, they will be violated. Problem is, these various social philosophers disagree, sometimes significantly, about the shape of human nature.<BR/><BR/>So I don't regard non-conservatives as "attempting to set aside nature and custom" in favor of "purely stipulated design." First, let's leave custom out of this. ANY attempt to establish a new organization, however well or ill advised, must set aside custom. Second, I see these people as attempting to FIT human nature, rather than disregard it. The utopians are saying that humans, by their nature, are not monogamous. And they're right. The conservatives are saying that humans ARE monogamous. They are also right. Humans are *partially* monogamous, except when they aren't.<BR/><BR/>Compounding the problem here is that if we regard 'custom' as social organization (and ramifications of it) that just sort of evolved along least-resistance paths to minimize conflict, you don't need to be Margaret Mead to notice the impressively wide range of 'natural' customs within which people can live peacefully and happily. People surely have a biological nature, but part of our nature is to be malleable and adaptable.<BR/><BR/>My thesis, then, is that what conservatives oppose isn't "unnatural" arrangements (after all, ALL points on the political spectrum reject that), but change itself. I see this, for example, behind conservative opposition to same-sex marriage. This is NOT an opposition to anything unnatural; it's nothing more than an attempt for civil authority to legally recognize a living arrangement that in many cases has been perfectly natural, stable, and comfortable. Some of the applicants have been committed partners for many decades.<BR/><BR/>So while I think we agree that any practice that violates our biological natures won't work, where conservatives disagree with non-conservatives concerns the width of scope within which we be permitted by stipulation to experiment. "Customary law" need not be narrowly stipulated to fall well within normal (i.e. wide) human variability, but it DOES need to be narrowly stipulated to escape the inherent conservative discomfort with "different."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139857320913806552006-02-13T19:02:00.000+00:002006-02-13T19:02:00.000+00:00Larry,I find your position somewhat circular. Stip...Larry,<BR/><BR/>I find your position somewhat circular. Stipulations are constrained by custom, but customs are established largely through stipulation. Maybe the distinction between these (written as opposed to unwritten?) isn't all that meaningful.<BR/><BR/>If you read (I'm sure you have, of course) such as Locke, Mill, Hobbes, Rousseau, and others, they all start out by saying "Because human nature is THIS, proper organization of society should be THAT." In other words, there's a long tradition of recognizing that to the degree that stipulations require unnatural behavior, they will be violated. Problem is, these various social philosophers disagree, sometimes significantly, about the shape of human nature.<BR/><BR/>So I don't regard non-conservatives as "attempting to set aside nature and custom" in favor of "purely stipulated design." First, let's leave custom out of this. ANY attempt to establish a new organization, however well or ill advised, must set aside custom. Second, I see these people as attempting to FIT human nature, rather than disregard it. The utopians are saying that humans, by their nature, are not monogamous. And they're right. The conservatives are saying that humans ARE monogamous. They are also right. Humans are *partially* monogamous, except when they aren't.<BR/><BR/>Compounding the problem here is that if we regard 'custom' as social organization (and ramifications of it) that just sort of evolved along least-resistance paths to minimize conflict, you don't need to be Margaret Mead to notice the impressively wide range of 'natural' customs within which people can live peacefully and happily. People surely have a biological nature, but part of our nature is to be malleable and adaptable.<BR/><BR/>My thesis, then, is that what conservatives oppose isn't "unnatural" arrangements (after all, ALL points on the political spectrum reject that), but change itself. I see this, for example, behind conservative opposition to same-sex marriage. This is NOT an opposition to anything unnatural; it's nothing more than an attempt for civil authority to legally recognize a living arrangement that in many cases has been perfectly natural, stable, and comfortable. Some of the applicants have been committed partners for many decades.<BR/><BR/>So while I think we agree that any practice that violates our biological natures won't work, where conservatives disagree with non-conservatives concerns the width of scope within which we be permitted by stipulation to experiment. "Customary law" need not be narrowly stipulated to fall well within normal (i.e. wide) human variability, but it DOES need to be narrowly stipulated to escape the inherent conservative discomfort with "different."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139853794614138802006-02-13T18:03:00.000+00:002006-02-13T18:03:00.000+00:00Flint,Wouldn't conservatives generally insist that...Flint,<BR/><BR/>Wouldn't conservatives generally insist that stipulated rules need to be constrained by nature and custom? Surely, conservatives oppose the utopian attempts to set aside nature and custom in constructing social order based on purely stipulated design. The many socialist projects for abolishing marriage and the family to achieve a fully communal society would illustrate the utopian disregard for human nature and human customs that conservatives reject.<BR/><BR/>Conservatives recognize positive law, but only within the limits set by natural law and customary law.Larry Arnharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619785331100785170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139848588131333152006-02-13T16:36:00.000+00:002006-02-13T16:36:00.000+00:00I'm not sure I'm following this marriage argument,...I'm not sure I'm following this marriage argument, although I'm quite interested. Biologically, as I understand it, humans are somewhat monogamous, and somewhat promiscuous, as compared with other species. However, my understanding of the 'conservative' posture is that monogamy is to be both expected and enforced, while the (very real) promiscuous part of human nature is to be frowned on. I think humans have worked out the most practical accommodation to minimize conflict of all kinds: give lip service to monogamy, and keep the occasional promiscuity clandestine. This being the customary practice, it seems that biology and custom are congruent, but the stipulated rules are unrealistic. Yet if conservatives are known for anything, it's for regarding stipulated rules as critical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139800668833095822006-02-13T03:17:00.000+00:002006-02-13T03:17:00.000+00:00Anonymous,No, Lincoln never spoke in his public wr...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>No, Lincoln never spoke in his public writings about evolution. But, as I indicated, Herndon did speak about Lincoln reading VESTIGES and being persuaded to accept the idea of evolution. This fits with Lincoln's general propensity to explain the world as governed by natural causes, which led to the public suspicion that he was an "infidel."Larry Arnharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619785331100785170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139799373676931982006-02-13T02:56:00.000+00:002006-02-13T02:56:00.000+00:00"In his published writings, he regularly acknowled...<I>"In his published writings, he regularly acknowledged that evolution might depend ultimately on the laws that the Creator had impressed on matter."</I><BR/><BR/>This is one that I would just love to see some kind of citation. Can anyone give an actual citation to a writing of Pres. Lincoln on subject of evolution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139608932560968882006-02-10T22:02:00.000+00:002006-02-10T22:02:00.000+00:00I'm not saying anything this time out.<A HREF="http://www.writingup.com/ashok/is_democracy_feasible_reflections_on_the_gettysburg_address" REL="nofollow">I'm not saying anything this time out.</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139506821849281312006-02-09T17:40:00.000+00:002006-02-09T17:40:00.000+00:00Anonymous,The human species might combine the mati...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>The human species might combine the mating propensities of bonobos and chimps, as Frans de Waal argues. But rather than comparing species, we would need to look directly at human beings.<BR/><BR/>There is great variation in the mating desires of human beings across individuals and across societies. But there are some regularities.<BR/><BR/>Human beings have a biological potentiality for a wide range of mating behaviors--including celibacy, promiscuity, monogamy, polygyny, and polyandry. But most human beings find celibacy too difficult because it denies our strong desire for sexual mating. Promiscuity is easier because it caters to our sexual desires. Polyandrous marriage (one wife with several husbands) is rare because the intense sexual jealousy of males inclines them against it. Monogamous mating is universal in all human societies, and polygynous mating has been common, because they satisfy natural desires. And yet polygynous mating is disruptive because of the conflicts among the co-wives.<BR/><BR/>So, understanding our natural desires can explain why celibacy is difficult, promiscuity is easy, polyandry is rare, monogamy is universal, and polygyny is common (but a source of conflict). <BR/><BR/>Our nature predisposes us to favor some behavior over others, although the specific expression of our behavior will reflect the variable conditions of physical environment, social circumstances, and individual temperament.<BR/><BR/>As I say in DARWINIAN CONSERVATISM, marriage law is complicated because it manifests the complex interaction of natural desires, customary traditions, and stipulated rules. <BR/><BR/>"Darwinian conservatism" sees three sources of social order in a nested hierarchy--nature, custom, and stipulation--so that nature constrains but does not specifically determine custom and stipulation.Larry Arnharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619785331100785170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139504986446674912006-02-09T17:09:00.000+00:002006-02-09T17:09:00.000+00:00Again concerning marriage, if marriage codifies th...Again concerning marriage, if marriage codifies the natural (read: shared by our closely related taxa) for sexual union and parentage in the service of social order, then how do we decide the which natural desires to promote and which to punish? The natural behavior of Pan paniscus is certainly different from that of Pan troglodytes, but we speak of the natural role of sex in procreation and bond formation between spouses, both of which have obvious implications for the larger society. However, paniscus is as phylogeneticaly related to us humans as troglogytes, so why then can I not make an equally valid argument for the natural role of sex to resolve conflict or to establish bonds within groups rather than dyads? I'm not trying to promote some a view here, rather to ask for a more technical definition of what is natural as claiming the utility or correctness of a social mechanism (e.g. marriage) is correctly rooted in its naturalness seems to be a powerful but volatile argument.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139503524363112822006-02-09T16:45:00.000+00:002006-02-09T16:45:00.000+00:00Keith,Despite the apparent differences, American c...Keith,<BR/><BR/>Despite the apparent differences, American conservatism and British conservatism face similar problems.<BR/><BR/>In the U.S., it appears that the conservative party is the majority party--for now. But Bush and the neoconservatives have walked away from the conservative traditions of ordered liberty through limited government--as indicated by the hugh growth in federal spending programs and the turn to presidential democracy. <BR/><BR/>It's not surprising that neocon journals like THE WEEKLY STANDARD have been publishing articles praising Disraeli as the model for American conservatives.<BR/><BR/>Defending "Darwinian conservatism" is for me one way to try to restore that fusion of Burkean traditionalism and Smithian libertarianism that supported the vigorous conservatism of Reagan and Thatcher.Larry Arnharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619785331100785170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139501539320305402006-02-09T16:12:00.000+00:002006-02-09T16:12:00.000+00:00Perhaps this is moving a little off topic but many...Perhaps this is moving a little off topic but many of us are puzzled as to why the Conservative Party has abandoned this sort of essentialist language at the very time that academe is beginning to accept that biology might in fact have something to contribute to political and social theory. <BR/><BR/>Some have argued that this is just a Machiavellian political game – New Labour has spun right (Blair) and governed left (Brown), so New Conservatism will spin left and govern right. As Cameron’s professional background is that of a corporate spin doctor he will have no problem working out some way of reconciling the two. But that will have to wait until the election is won; the task for the moment is just to win it by any means, fair or foul. Columnists like Bruce Anderson are begging disaffected Tory rightists to keep schtum and just wait for the true radicalism that will follow after the election (in 2008).<BR/><BR/>The trouble with this is Joe Public has wised up to the charade that is modern party politics. Everyone knows that New Labour is smoke and mirrors; the Conservatives may have been unpopular but at least you knew, more or less, what they stood for. Now that Cameron has stolen New Labour’s presentational clothes there is a distinct possibility of a mass exit of voters from the hallowed ‘centre ground’ towards extreme parties at either end of the political spectrum, the last bastions of political honesty. This looks even more likely in the light of the decision of the Crown Prosecution Service to renew the case against the leaders of the British National Party, by sharp contrast to the 'hands off' policy during the 1990s towards the Muslim cleric Abu Hamza and, more recently, the protesters over the Danish cartoons. The language of the latter make Nick Griffin and the other BNP leaders look like moderate liberals. <BR/><BR/>More ominously, apostates like Michael Portillo have argued that Cameron really *will* do what he says. This is because a) the politician’s job is to get elected; b) the electorate is stubbornly collectivist in its outlook, ergo c) politicians have to go with the public mood, right or wrong. Indeed: ‘The public may well be wrong. Perhaps more grammar schools and more private money in health are good ideas. But there is no future for any British politician who stuffs such radical ideas down such unwilling throats in such placid times.’ <BR/><BR/>Now that may well be true (it used to be called Butskellism, and was the principal cause of national decline), but if so then let the public vote Labour – at least the government will be run by people who actually believe in collectivism, however misguided that might be. Although a salesman may need to change his tune if he transfers from one firm to its biggest rival, tempted by the prospect of promotion to an executive job, one would like to think that there was a bit more to public service than just ‘gissa job’.<BR/><BR/>Some even have lauded Cameron for returning to the ‘one-nation’ Conservatism of Benjamin Disraeli. But what this ignores is that Disraeli was an unprincipled opportunist who ‘did not seem to care which way he travelled providing he was in the driver’s seat’. Disraeli’s Conservatism was just the modern version of feudalism – noblesse oblige. It took the ‘divisive’ Margaret Thatcher to bring real wealth and opportunity to the proles – in the form of home ownership and small shareholdings – and without needing to resort to the rhetoric of ‘social justice’.<BR/><BR/>Keith Sutherland<BR/>IMPRINT ACADEMICLarry Arnharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619785331100785170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139499943481924282006-02-09T15:45:00.000+00:002006-02-09T15:45:00.000+00:00Keith,I agree. That's why I speak of the natural ...Keith,<BR/><BR/>I agree. That's why I speak of the natural desire for justice as reciprocity--returning benefit for benefit and injury for injury.<BR/><BR/> The moral emotions of vengeance are rooted in this desire, and, as you say, this provides the emotional ground for criminal law.<BR/><BR/>Adam Smith saw this when he explained the importance of indignation against injuries inflicted on innocent people as an expression of the moral sentiment that supports criminal law.Larry Arnharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619785331100785170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139497066008764802006-02-09T14:57:00.000+00:002006-02-09T14:57:00.000+00:00I agree that social institutions like the marriage...I agree that social institutions like the marriage laws are the necessary consequence of "the natural desires for sexual mating and parental care that constitute the natural root of social order". But to what extent does a similar same argument apply to the criminal justice system?<BR/><BR/>Sir James Stephen’s History of the Criminal Law of England (1883) recounts that the object of the judicial system is simply to give formal expression to the natural sentiment of anger produced by an act of wrongdoing. There would be no law without a natural passion for vengeance, just as there would be no marriage without sexual desire. The relationship of emotion and justice is just like the relationship between sealing wax and the seal. <BR/><BR/>Modern jurists and criminologists may talk about reform and deterrence, but justice is, at root, institutionalised revenge. This would also imply that the adoption of the Rawlsian language of "social justice" by David Cameron's New Model Conservatives is not conservative in any recognisable sense.<BR/><BR/>Keith Sutherland<BR/>Imprint AcademicLarry Arnharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619785331100785170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139486056241407032006-02-09T11:54:00.000+00:002006-02-09T11:54:00.000+00:00I have a chapter on marriage in DARWINIAN CONSERVA...I have a chapter on marriage in DARWINIAN CONSERVATISM. I agree with Darwin that marriage law properly reinforces the natural desires for sexual mating and parental care that constitute the natural root of social order. Marriage is natural for the human animal. But the natural desires for sexual mating and parental care need to be structured through customary traditions and stipulated laws governing marriage and the family.Larry Arnharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619785331100785170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16355954.post-1139469804542970532006-02-09T07:23:00.000+00:002006-02-09T07:23:00.000+00:00There are only a handful of things more pleasant t...There are only a handful of things more pleasant than reading a well reasoned argument with which you disagree. I've only recently discovered this blog, and I'll continue to read it long enough to become charmed or indifferent. But, I wonder what the—I'm currently unconvinced—implication of Darwinian evolution in the imperfectability of man has in the political philosophy of government towards marriage, or, say, other institutions that promote social order through the promotion of perfectibility (e.g. the illusion of social mobility pacifying the stochastic and arbitrary temperament of the people).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com